tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post4600959383172404172..comments2024-03-22T06:31:42.929-05:00Comments on Wry Thoughts About Religion: A Christmas RepriseUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-54515779791422428572015-01-12T13:34:02.549-06:002015-01-12T13:34:02.549-06:00Charlie, thanks for the idea that "periodizin...Charlie, thanks for the idea that "periodizing" might be the operating principle here.<br /><br />Gene Stecher<br />Chambersburg, Pa.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-51711398145554048582015-01-12T10:56:16.032-06:002015-01-12T10:56:16.032-06:00Hi Gene,
A tough question and difficult to answer ...Hi Gene,<br />A tough question and difficult to answer briefly. Here are a few random and schematic thoughts:<br />1. I am uncertain what Q read. Following Luke's order here are the words they have in common: "The law and the prophets. . . John from . . .the kingdom . . .and seizes it.<br />2. While scholars as a rule thinks Luke's version best represents Q, not all do. T. W. Manson, for example, thinks that Luke tried to clarify a difficult saying best represented in Matt 11:12-13.<br />3. Luke's version excludes John from the new dispensation of the proclamation of the kingdom, while Matthew's version includes John in the new dispensation. But in Acts 1:22 (written by Luke) John is included in the new dispensation.<br />4. This kind of periodizing of history is typical of Jewish and early Christian apocalyptic (cf. 2 Thess 2:1-12).<br />5. It seems to me that in Matt 11:12-13 and Luke 16:16 we have an early Christian debate on where John falls in the scheme of Christian salvation history. For that reason I do not regard it as a saying that originates with Jesus,<br />Cordially,<br />CharlieCharles Hedrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285420936166236724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-84266174540450295172015-01-09T15:54:48.840-06:002015-01-09T15:54:48.840-06:00Charlie, if you would reject the following verses ...Charlie, if you would reject the following verses as probably not original with Jesus, even in part, what would your reasoning be? I'm intrigued by their vision of Jesus' followers as "lawbreakers", a theme easily found in other Jesus material and the paulines. <br /><br />Luke 16:16 “The law and prophets were in effect until John came; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is proclaimed, and everyone tries to enter it by force.” (NRSV)<br /><br />“Right up to John’s time you have the law and the prophets, since then God’s domain has been proclaimed as good news and everyone is breaking into it violently.” (JS)<br /><br />Matthew 11:12: “From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force.” (NRSV)<br /><br />“From the time of John the ‘Baptist until now Heaven’s imperial rule has been breaking in violently, and violent men are attempting to gain it by force.” (JS)<br /><br />In The Five Gospels (1993) the JS colored these passages gray, saying that no real sense can be made of their meaning, that the original saying has been lost. On the other hand I find them quite intriguing and quite consistent with Jesus’ more extreme images, such as castration and assassination.<br /><br />Gene Stecher<br />Chambersburg, Pa. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-11209401336716104312015-01-06T09:36:59.028-06:002015-01-06T09:36:59.028-06:00Good Morning Gene,
It seems that you more often th...Good Morning Gene,<br />It seems that you more often than not ask me questions that push me out of my comfort zone, and this is one of those times! In truth, I think we know very little about Jesus that stands up to critical inquiry, and what little we think we know with some confidence, should be introduced by "probably." With that said, let me try to answer your questions. There are very few sources that allow us to access the lives of peasants in the ancient Roman world (WOJ, p. 1), and virtually nothing for the still lower classes to which Jesus belonged (WOJ. pp. 182-83). I do not have confidence in the historical reliability of the early Christian gospels (WOJ, pp. 189-95), or in the images of Jesus they paint for the reader. Using the gospels as sources one can get almost any sort of portrayal of Jesus one wants (WOJ, pp. 164-79). That said, those sources in some few cases have made use of traditions from the earlier half of the first century, but these must be judiciously critically determined and the results are always debatable. That Jesus barely rises to the surface as a person in the view of Josephus suggests that even in his own day Jesus was simply a non-entity.<br />As to whether Jesus was literate, I would say the odds are against it (see the study by Harris, Ancient Literacy). As to the allusions to Hebrew Bible in the probable historical sayings and parables of Jesus: that information would have come to Jesus in the same way that most things happened in a family setting: by oral communication. That is, provided what I have thought is some kind of allusion to Hebrew Bible stories. Remember that what is or is not an allusion lies in the mind of the reader. In general, particularly for the lower classes in the ancient world literacy was low. But if there is an overlap between the sayings and stories of Jesus and the Hebrew Bible traditions it would have happened orally by word of mouth. Even the gospels describe Jesus as a talker rather than a writer.<br />Cordially,<br />Charlie Charles Hedrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285420936166236724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-11744465191849833452015-01-04T16:06:28.642-06:002015-01-04T16:06:28.642-06:00Charlie, I wonder if you would comment on the prob...Charlie, I wonder if you would comment on the probable level of Jesus' knowledge of the Jewish literature of his day. <br /><br />In your Wisdom of Jesus, if we consider probable HJ sayings (40+), there are only a couple with possible OT or intertestimental allusions. If we consider probable HJ parables (20+), I count over 180 possible OT or intertestimental allusions covering all the parables (TWJ:103-118, 138-142). <br /><br />Mostly I have heard that scholars consider HJ to have been illiterate but smart. Could oral circulation of the older stories account for what allusions we have, or are they significant enough to require some written knowledge?<br /><br />It is my understanding also that the JS did not code pink or red any direct quotes of the OT put on Jesus lips, such as, "God made them male and female...the two shall become one flesh" (Mark 10:6-7), but pink/red was scored in the case of "by the finger of God" (Luke 11:19-20).<br /><br />I don't have any research of my own to address the question asked.<br /><br /><br />Gene Stecher<br />Chambersburg, PaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-51000087225834163172015-01-01T16:13:12.480-06:002015-01-01T16:13:12.480-06:00Absolutely, the best sermon by a scholar that I...Absolutely, the best sermon by a scholar that I've ever read.<br /><br />Gene Stecher<br />Chambersburg, PaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-70971545538770860022014-12-31T20:44:35.041-06:002014-12-31T20:44:35.041-06:00Charles and I are continually enlightened and insp...Charles and I are continually enlightened and inspired by your Wry Thoughts About Religion. You truly speak to us, "loud and clear," and we thank you very much. This one is especially meaningful.<br /><br />Warmest best,<br /><br />HarrylynAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-15136136779363812732014-12-31T09:04:07.713-06:002014-12-31T09:04:07.713-06:00Thanks, Charlie. Well said.Thanks, Charlie. Well said.bobinbereahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00501253521947132870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-11571309526455695682014-12-30T13:46:22.719-06:002014-12-30T13:46:22.719-06:00Amen, brotha. Beautifully written. PeaceAmen, brotha. Beautifully written. PeaceLucinda H. Kennaleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11021632314350458654noreply@blogger.com