tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post3449022370326306296..comments2024-03-22T06:31:42.929-05:00Comments on Wry Thoughts About Religion: Will the Jesus Tradition remain Relevant?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-59144775299131937462017-05-03T14:26:22.898-05:002017-05-03T14:26:22.898-05:00Gene and Charlie, I completely agree with Gene abo...Gene and Charlie, I completely agree with Gene about the atoning aspect of Jesus's death... It was definitely politically not spiritually motivated. Gene, I heard a rabbi openly wonder what would Christianity look like if all we had were the gospels and none of the Pauline epistles? It's an interesting imaginary situation to ponder. <br /><br />The other two religious traditions are Islam and Judaism... Neither of those are a good fit for most Westerner who value individuality. So of all the traditions to choose from, Christianity does contain more elements of freedom and individuality than the rest of the world's. Charlie has pointed out many times that Jesus is whatever the individual imagines him to be and most people do not seem to care one whit about any historical accuracy regarding his existence or his teachings. They only know what they are TAUGHT (sorry for the caps) about him. Traditions are made up of men's teaching, not God's. So we have people like Charlie to thank for showing us how little (if any) of Jesus's actual words or teachings are preserved in scripture... but what little there is, some people deeply cherish.<br /><br />We can only pass on the elements of our traditions to those under our influence, but we have no control over whether or not they choose to keep that tradition or change it into one their own making. ElizabethElizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07407263133805266418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-75354227928479789522017-05-03T10:16:11.184-05:002017-05-03T10:16:11.184-05:00In a sense what you want me to do is precisely wha...In a sense what you want me to do is precisely what my blog and other publications are all about. But becoming a prophet of religion in the new age is not my calling. I will leave that to you and others who have sensed such a calling. I have no demons or perhaps better angels urging me in such a direction in behalf of "the larger faith community." What I blog is not part of a conscious program for reforming the church, harming the church, or for creating new forms of the faith; it is simply something that my curiosity has led me to ponder with respect to religion. I assume that people will make of it what they will. If it helps, that is a plus, but if it does not, at least I satisfied my curiosity.<br />Cordially,<br />CharlieCharles Hedrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285420936166236724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-67650609304142306192017-05-02T18:39:07.885-05:002017-05-02T18:39:07.885-05:00Charlie and Roger,
I hope we can agree that the d...Charlie and Roger,<br /><br />I hope we can agree that the desire for truth puts us all on an equal playing field. I describe myself as a 'Jesus follower' for two reasons: 'loving one's enemy' is the ultimate value, and conquering death is the ultimate hope. In their own way, each functions in the arena of myth and magic, with both falling short on believability and demonstrability.<br />That's my own answer to "valuing aspects of the tradition," certainly not "superstition" but replacements for the conditions which promote hate and death.<br /><br />Gene Stecher<br />Chambersburg, Pa.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-1234534298020765512017-05-02T09:58:55.115-05:002017-05-02T09:58:55.115-05:00And that "other readers will nevertheless con...And that "other readers will nevertheless continue to value aspects of the tradition and their experience, and incorporate them in some fashion into future forms of faith" is exactly what I am pushing you to articulate both for yourself and in the larger sense of the faith community.<br />Community Christian Churchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05224654943612020050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-70317938289263006562017-05-02T09:24:53.646-05:002017-05-02T09:24:53.646-05:00Good Morning Friend Roger,
I do not think that the...Good Morning Friend Roger,<br />I do not think that the traditional Christianity that produced you and me, allowing us to grow in different directions was a totally negative experience. As a religious option for faith in the modern world, it can and does have positive features, as the comment from Sandy just below affirms. My books and other publications are not aimed at overturning traditional Christianity or leaving it behind for something wholly other, but rather at reforming it by equipping those still living in its House of Faith to think critically about their faith. Some of my readers may eventually reject the magic and superstition (as you put it) in traditional Christianity and as a result reject Christianity as a source for thinking about future forms of faith; other readers will nevertheless continue to value aspects of the tradition and their experience, and incorporate them in some fashion into future forms of faith. I like to think that I am one of the latter. <br />Cordially<br />Charlie Charles Hedrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285420936166236724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-42995560598139937562017-05-01T19:30:52.003-05:002017-05-01T19:30:52.003-05:00Your article this week really "resonated"...Your article this week really "resonated" with me! Even though I no longer attend the Lutheran church of my "nearly lifelong" membership, the traditions established within me during the many decades of my involvement there are still within me. And although my more recent church affiliations are within the "progressive umbrella," my Lutheran background is very much the basis of the person I am and the focus of many of my most meaningful memories.<br /><br />Your column seemed to support my framework of experience. Thank you!!<br /><br />Sandra WhiteAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-66758908766355109562017-05-01T12:10:47.057-05:002017-05-01T12:10:47.057-05:00I'm not sure how "new" we are. Maybe...I'm not sure how "new" we are. Maybe we just took Tillich more seriously than most churches do? But I think our roots are in the liberation theology movement with high esteem for the Biblical critical movement of the past century.<br /><br />Beyond that, if I may ask you to sharpen your reply a bit... to say that the Jesus tradition remains popularly relevant in society and therefore your work as a Jesus scholar is still an important service to this public seems to perpetuate the disconnect. <br /><br />Would the Jesus tradition still be so important to people if they read your books and believed that your conclusions were correct? That is, once you dismiss the magic and superstition of traditional Christianity, and you have identified the little we know about Jesus with certainty, THEN why would anyone care?Community Christian Churchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05224654943612020050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-9989934334197100652017-05-01T09:09:35.111-05:002017-05-01T09:09:35.111-05:00Charlie and Elizabeth,
Regarding the cross and at...Charlie and Elizabeth,<br /><br />Regarding the cross and atonement interpretations of Jesus' death, the matter becomes more complex when considering that the cross is the only story about Jesus where he loves his enemy.<br /><br />Walter Wink outlines an alternative "no atonement theory" (The Human Being (2002) 110-111):<br /><br />His death was not an atoning sacrifice...It was a political murder meant to sow terror and undermine hope. His violent death exposes the domination system as oppressive and violent. His resurrection challenges the ultimate power of the system and invites us to be people of God here and now where oppressive systems remain powerful and must be challenged. Jesus teaches us how to live and shows us the risks of living..."<br /><br />Gene Stecher<br />Chambersburg, Pa.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-42824532104724760642017-05-01T09:06:36.143-05:002017-05-01T09:06:36.143-05:00Good Morning Elizabeth,
If one understands that th...Good Morning Elizabeth,<br />If one understands that the gospel writers made mistakes in what they attributed to Jesus of Nazareth, then one can check the report of the Jesus Seminar to see what scholars of the Jesus tradition regarded as most probably originating with Jesus: Robert Funk, Roy Hoover and the Jesus Seminar, The Five Gospels. The Search for the Authentic Words of Jesus (San Francisco: Harper, 1993). It is the only complete assessment of the entire tradition in the first two years after Jesus. It gives both the majority opinion and the minority where appropriate. A good book to have because it empowers the reader to make up his or her own mind.<br />I provided my own list in The Wisdom of Jesus. For the sayings pages 93-118; for the parables pages 119-44. <br />Cordially,<br />CharlieCharles Hedrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285420936166236724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-43446490237458651612017-04-30T14:12:34.750-05:002017-04-30T14:12:34.750-05:00Good afternoon Elizabeth,
On your first question:...Good afternoon Elizabeth,<br /><br />On your first question: here is the church's web page that among other things contains a brief description and video tapes of the pastor's preaching:<br />https://www.spfccc.org<br /><br />On your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs: Jesus did not teach a version of the Pauline gospel and did not share Paul's views, which are what you are describing in these two paragraphs.<br /><br />Unconditional love is love continually extended in concrete ways to others no matter who they are or what they do.<br />Cordially,<br />Charlie Charles Hedrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285420936166236724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-55225035704100634632017-04-30T13:44:26.143-05:002017-04-30T13:44:26.143-05:00PS: Charlie, I just saw what I think is your defin...PS: Charlie, I just saw what I think is your definition of unconditional love: "universal humanitarian code of care and concern for fellow human beings." I don't know how much Jesus spoke about hell or damnation, but if he did... it wasn't compatible with unconditional love. Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07407263133805266418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-81977953530387393252017-04-29T16:44:41.783-05:002017-04-29T16:44:41.783-05:00Charlie, I have to admit that I'm unfamiliar w...Charlie, I have to admit that I'm unfamiliar with what you refer to as "a new form of traditional faith based on social justice." What are the basic tenets of that theology? And how are they executed on a practical basis?<br /><br />While I admire your exaltation of unconditional love- how is sending someone to hell who doesn't believe in Jesus unconditional love? I'm not seeing that connection. We are taught that Christianity is a "higher" religion because Jesus "paid the price" for our sins.... Because the wages of sin are death. Which kind of judge is the more merciful one- the one who says "Charlie, I'll wipe our your debt by making this Jesus person over here pay the price for you." <br /><br />Or- "Charlie, I'll wipe out the debt you owe by giving you a clean slate and removing it from your record and no one has to pay any price, it's entirely gone." In other words, there is no "price" for forgiveness... If you confess your sin to God and repent, you're forgiven. Period.<br /><br />What is your definition of unconditional love? Elizabeth Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07407263133805266418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-12998950213036142982017-04-29T11:41:16.590-05:002017-04-29T11:41:16.590-05:00Good Morning Anonymous.
Could you say a little mor...Good Morning Anonymous.<br />Could you say a little more about secularism beginning as a Christian idea?<br />Cordially,<br />CharlieCharles Hedrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285420936166236724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-1576652778924281272017-04-28T09:32:35.198-05:002017-04-28T09:32:35.198-05:00I think if you extend the Jesus tradition to inclu...I think if you extend the Jesus tradition to include the history of Christian thought generally the case for studying Christianity becomes overwhelming. Secularism begins as a Christian idea. Apocalypse (everywhere in society and tv these days) is a Christian idea. Various Christian forms of asceticism (sexual, physical, intellectual) inform modern liberal ethics. Marxism is profoundly shaped by Christianity. Historicism is to a great extent a product of the conflict between Protestants and Catholics, and the "search for the historical Jesus" is in fundamental ways the first modern historical project. Even the current environmentalist movement can be traced to Christian ideas about the relationship between man and nature. And on and on. <br /><br />What is interesting in all of this is the repression of the historic role of Christianity in shaping the life, politics and intellectual ideas of the contemporary world: it points to a fundamental insecurity about religion among intellectuals. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com