tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post2417357725655866519..comments2024-03-22T06:31:42.929-05:00Comments on Wry Thoughts About Religion: What's Good about the Church?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-1545662589183718032020-01-04T08:53:32.889-06:002020-01-04T08:53:32.889-06:00Hi Elizabeth,
In response to your second paragraph...Hi Elizabeth,<br />In response to your second paragraph, there are a number of things more frightening to me that have nothing to do with religion. None of these as far as I remember were hurled at me from the church:<br />Here are a few, stream of consciousness style: oblivion, loss of consciousness, ceasing to exist as an individual, never to feel comforted by the love of another, being conscious and knowing that I was totally alone for eternity, etc. Compared to these fears burning in hell might not be so bad.<br />Cordially,<br />Charlie<br />Charles Hedrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285420936166236724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-31875088003261849462020-01-02T19:09:04.666-06:002020-01-02T19:09:04.666-06:00"We, however, in our adulthood should decide ..."We, however, in our adulthood should decide the meaning and significance of the information they provide us." Thank you Charlie... that was well stated and I agree wholeheartedly.<br /><br />You are correct about not all Protestant churches using clerical garb! In fact nowadays, I'm sure very few do... I should have clarified that. I just had never noticed the difference before and how it related to a court room.<br /><br />With regard to concepts worse than threatening people with physical suffering- which concepts are you referring to in your last sentence? Are you referring to certain negative concepts being communicated by church leaders? If so, which ones and why are they worse? In other words- were you subjected to negative concepts as a young man and did they make an impression upon you? <br /><br />There isn't room enough here for me to go into detail, but I've heard certain concepts about the "End Times" communicated to my family and friends when we were younger and the repercussions of those "prophecies" affected my parents in irreparable ways. So- that explains why the first sentence of this post (which I quoted from your reply) was so meaningful and appreciated by me. I can't tell you how much it would have helped my family years ago. Many thanks as usual, ElizabethElizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07407263133805266418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-27089543359391019732020-01-02T13:19:00.160-06:002020-01-02T13:19:00.160-06:00Good afternoon Elizabeth,
I agree with your commen...Good afternoon Elizabeth,<br />I agree with your comment in paragraph 1. I also look for a little humility and honest reflection as the church ponders the eternal verities (if such there be).<br />paragraph 4: We enter life a blank slate and in our childhood we do need authority figures leading us in hopefully the right paths--parents, teachers, church, government, etc. At some point we should be deciding things for ourselves. But we will always need those who have studied issues intently to give us their findings. We, however, in our adulthood should decide the meaning and significance of the information they provide us.<br />paragraph 6: it was an interesting contrast, although not all protestant churches use clerical garb.<br />Paragraph 7: There are concepts much worse than threatening people with physical suffering in what is obviously a non physical future (if future there be).<br />Cordially,<br />Charlie <br />Charles Hedrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285420936166236724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-13957690456544595332020-01-01T19:18:49.967-06:002020-01-01T19:18:49.967-06:00Happy New Year Charlie!!
I've been in Texas v...Happy New Year Charlie!!<br /><br />I've been in Texas visiting my family and have given thought to your question while I was down there- I'm surprised at how difficult it is for me to answer. I suppose that may be because I haven't attended church in quite a while. My beliefs are so different now, it's hard to know what I wish to gain from a church experience, or what I wish to contribute to it either. I very much enjoyed reading about Gene and Dennis's experiences recently, that was extremely interesting.<br /><br />1) I suppose first and foremost, the important thing about belonging to a church is that you a part of a community where you can give and receive support and encouragement to one another... And also be there for people in a time of need. As humans, we need to belong somewhere. Do you agree?<br /><br />2) Belonging to a church gives one a sense of identity, and that is also important. However, one must figure that out for him or herself first and there's the rub. It's not easy to know what one's identity is in a world of confusing spiritual teachings that are thrown at us from judgmental persons and pastors- whose job it is to tell us what we're doing wrong on a constant basis.<br /><br />3) Personal freedom is very important to me, and to most people I know. So finding the right church is a balance between belonging to a group of like minded individuals while retaining one's personal freedom to think and act for oneself free of encumbrances. I don't like being told what to believe about God or scripture. <br /><br />4) Why do you think human beings today need an outside authority to tell them what to believe about religion and spirituality? Why do you think Christians need an outside measuring rod to tell us what the Bible says we should be doing? <br /><br />5) There are other spiritual centers besides churches that encourage inner growth and transformation and involvement in our local communities. But they are not as well organized and affiliated as the traditional church- Eckhart Tolle, Esther Hicks, Byron Katie, and Sadhguru all have centers and conferences that meet periodically to help with inner transformation of consciousness and service to the community at large... It's not traditional and you would most likely feel out of place. People today are finding other avenues to express their spirituality than a pew or a pulpit. <br /><br />6) Speaking of Catholic and Protestant church experiences- Alan Watts noted the similarity of the traditional Catholic sanctuary to the royal court of a king or queen in ancient times... The priest stands high up on before the altar like a king and looks out at the congregation with his back to the wall... The accoutrements resemble a royal ritual with sepulcher, scepters, priestly robes, high ceilings, stained glass windows etc. However the traditional Protestant church resembles a court of law with the preacher dressed in a black judges robe and the pews are evenly divided down a straight aisle like two sides in court of law... The pastor sits up high like a judge and looks down upon the congregation in a stark utilitarian atmosphere with little to know ornamentation other than crosses and candles. I thought it was an interesting contrast.<br /><br />7) Why do you think of attending church in such positive and glowing terms when they use fear to scare people into accepting Jesus and tell us that we are irredeemable with out the shedding of an innocent man's blood? Human sacrifice? Does it ever bother you that churches play upon people's fears to scare them into "salvation" from sin? How is scaring people with talk of burning eternal hell- how is that productive or good or lifegiving to your inner psyche? It surprises me that you are immune to the fear-mongering.<br /><br />Many thanks!! ElizabethElizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07407263133805266418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-20571831061829827062019-12-31T21:48:04.872-06:002019-12-31T21:48:04.872-06:00What can one say about what kind or genre of music...What can one say about what kind or genre of music anyone listens to? I couldn’t answer the question for my choice(s). It is like those who enjoy broccoli. Depending upon one’s thoughts at the time, some like it raw, others steamed or stir fried, some with a tasty sauce, others in a broccoli salad. Some like to munch the sprouts while others enjoy watching the strongest plants grow into a mass of tiny golden blooms, collecting seeds for next season. <br /><br />That was my last parable for the year. Happy New Year!<br />Dennis Dean Carpenter<br />Dahlonega, Ga.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-47688461725563243532019-12-30T08:42:01.706-06:002019-12-30T08:42:01.706-06:00I'm sorry but your last statement begs the fol...I'm sorry but your last statement begs the following question: what does she listen to?<br />CharlieCharles Hedrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285420936166236724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-84926916434197466312019-12-28T12:51:26.396-06:002019-12-28T12:51:26.396-06:00No story. My wife & I do things which have dif...No story. My wife & I do things which have different significance to each of us together. For instance, when I perform my music she usually attends the concert or show, though it is not the music she tends to listen to.<br />Dennis Dean Carpenter<br />Dahlonega, Ga.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-40736992812029690382019-12-28T11:06:39.857-06:002019-12-28T11:06:39.857-06:00Good morning Dennis,
Your Christmas Eve experience...Good morning Dennis,<br />Your Christmas Eve experience raises for me a rather serious question. Why is a confirmed skeptic, such as yourself, spending "decades" at Christmas Eve services in the pietistic tradition? I suspect there is a story there. Care to share?<br />Cordially,<br />Charlie Charles Hedrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285420936166236724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-61484785163293186142019-12-27T17:52:13.837-06:002019-12-27T17:52:13.837-06:00My experience was totally different, Gene and Char...My experience was totally different, Gene and Charlie. I attended the Moravian Love Feast Dec. 24, as I have done for decades with my wife. The pews were close to full, though this was the 4:00, the second of three services. The audience ranged from quite a few children (who were involved as a group “up front” during part of the music) and young adults to people in their eighties. It was a fairly heterogeneous group of people, with about a third Caribbean, a third Latina or Latino and a third European or African ancestry. There were different kinds of buns from each cultural group, and the coffee was rather tasty. Hymns were sung. The message was very short and centered on Isaiah 2.1-5. It was the first time I can remember that one of the nativity stories wasn’t part of the service. At first I was puzzled, but it made sense. The message related to verse 5, because candles play a big part in the Christmas Love Feast. (The pastor extolled congregants to be “lights in the world.”) When I was researching second century Christian services (after reading your blog on contemporary church services, Charlie), this one reminded me most of those described by Tertullian in “Apology,” ch. 39. <br />Dennis Dean Carpenter<br />Dahlonega, Ga.<br /><br />Gene: The same guy supposedly wrote all the John material? Geesh! Eusebius even doubted that!<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-70693767898563120332019-12-27T11:26:25.266-06:002019-12-27T11:26:25.266-06:00Thank you for the report, Gene. Interesting observ...Thank you for the report, Gene. Interesting observations!<br />CharlieCharles Hedrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285420936166236724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-10892995905917840232019-12-27T10:46:26.364-06:002019-12-27T10:46:26.364-06:00Found myself at Mass again this morning. Twenty th...Found myself at Mass again this morning. Twenty three in attendance with six officiating: two priests (1 White, 1 Hispanic), four lay persons, all men (3 White, 1 Black). Of the attendees, all were white and say 50-60+, except for two young Hispanic mothers, one with two school age children and one with a pre-school child. Overall, in this area of the woods (south central Pa.) the Catholics have done a much better job than the Protestants of reaching out to persons of color. This particular parish has a weekly service in Spanish. The Black community pretty much has its own churches.<br /><br />I learned from the homily the absurd (to some of us) conclusion that the same guy wrote the Gospel of John, the three letters of John, and the Revelation to John.<br /><br />I further learned that the Gospel was written to Jews to teach them that God was incarnate in Jesus who gives everyone the opportunity to experience incarnate living. (Silence about anyone who doesn't take advantage of this winning lottery ticket). Reading it, there's not much compassionate teaching in sight; the gospel has a rather condemning approach to the Jews.<br /><br />Lots of eternal verities but not much about values and ethics, except the multi-racial visual, which of course is very important.<br /><br />Gene Stecher<br />Chambersburg, Pa.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-2917585603832181522019-12-24T10:27:25.689-06:002019-12-24T10:27:25.689-06:00On visiting church primarily because of who goes t...On visiting church primarily because of who goes there and not the theology, that is what research has shown (Stark, “Cities of God” and “The Triumph of Christianity”). There are other reasons I have observed. <br />1. “Inherited” faith – That’s where the family has gone since time began.<br />2. “Business” faith – That’s where the “important” business folk go. (There were even jokes made about that where I worked.)<br />3. “Political” faith – I have an old friend who is an elected official who says he attends two services each Sunday. (Both are the same denomination, one in the town, the other in the hinterlands.)<br />4. “Mixed” marriages – One goes to the church of the spouse that is the most religious. I’ve seen Baptists become Catholics and Catholics become Baptists.<br />5. “Extra-curricular” faith – Some choose their faith because the church has many activities for kids.<br /> Relating to that and to the “inherited” faith, “kid-centric” faith has some choosing a church that will give their children a “moral mooring,” though that is less common, since the majority of America realizes that religion isn’t necessary for one to live and act morally. (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/10/16/a-growing-share-of-americans-say-its-not-necessary-to-believe-in-god-to-be-moral/<br /><br />Dennis Dean Carpenter<br />Dahlonega, Ga.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-78772999268462380042019-12-24T06:36:38.522-06:002019-12-24T06:36:38.522-06:00Thanks Gene,
A helpful observation.
Have other had...Thanks Gene,<br />A helpful observation.<br />Have other had a different experience?<br />CharlieCharles Hedrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285420936166236724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-75909933994837913312019-12-23T14:35:39.020-06:002019-12-23T14:35:39.020-06:00Hi Charlie,
My experience was that perhaps the ma...Hi Charlie,<br /><br />My experience was that perhaps the majority of folks join a church that is consistent with their parent's membership, and in a marriage the church of the spouse with the strongest church ties wins out. A lot of times it happens that folks will attend a particular church because they have already made friends with church members in other settings.<br /><br />For some churches, in this country, I think evangelism built on social action may be overstated. I've been affiliated with United Methodist, United Church of Chirst, Roman Catholic, and Presbyterian churches, and I'm not aware of any of them locally building evangelism on a social action base, except if one thinks that the natural inclination to invite someone to worship qualifies. I can say that in the United Methodist Church at large, Evangelism and Social Action were separate committees in the church structure.<br /><br />Earlier in my career I was director of a 24-Hour helpline referred to as a "teleministry," sponsored by the council of churches of a two county area, which required 40 hours of training in listening, interpersonal, and resource awareness skills. This program was never used for evangelistic purposes. I must say also, that the people interested in the training came largely from the main stream Protestant and Roman Catholic backgrounds, or even very weak church affiliations. The final requirement before going on phone duty was attendance at a worship service where each volunteer was "commissioned" to the task at hand.<br /><br />Gene Stecher<br />Chambersburg, Pa.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-32064275812551189802019-12-23T12:09:09.026-06:002019-12-23T12:09:09.026-06:00HI Dennis,
A couple of observations. You are corre...HI Dennis,<br />A couple of observations. You are correct I think that in general people join a particular church community for social reasons. But there are those for whom theology is the reason for attending or not attending a particular religious community.<br />And second: Churches will engage in social service activities in order to evangelize those who attend their activities. So their "charitable acts" are not really disinterested activities.<br />Cordially,<br />Charlie Charles Hedrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285420936166236724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-90711861264847097292019-12-22T09:40:34.164-06:002019-12-22T09:40:34.164-06:00Church Value? Here are two potential values, thou...Church Value? Here are two potential values, though today there are many secular avenues for these.<br /><br />Church is primarily a social gathering. That can be positive. As such, like-minded people come together and personal friendships and business connections are formed. (One doesn’t generally first affiliate with a church for the theology but because of who attends. The theology, if it develops, comes later.) <br /><br />As a social gathering, a few churches where I live sponsor ESOL classes for immigrants, food banks, fundraisers which support abused spouses and children, the poor, the disabled, supporting Habitat for Humanity and other organizations that help the disenfranchised. That’s good, but it can sometimes imply a desire to proselytize. There are secular channels that don’t have such “strings” attached.<br /><br />Dennis Dean Carpenter<br />Dahlonega, Ga.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-25376179246183863492019-12-22T08:33:19.093-06:002019-12-22T08:33:19.093-06:00Good Morning PaulyR,
I agree that preserving our h...Good Morning PaulyR,<br />I agree that preserving our human history (warts and all) is a good thing. And the church has done that with regard to the history of Jesus. In a sense the church rescued Jesus from oblivion. However, the church has so obscured Jesus' personal human history by turning him into a God that what the church still does is a mixed blessing.<br />Cordially,<br />Charlie Charles Hedrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285420936166236724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-58861627426605561082019-12-22T08:27:07.675-06:002019-12-22T08:27:07.675-06:00I agree, Gene. We need skeptics. If for no other r...I agree, Gene. We need skeptics. If for no other reason to keep true believers in whatever truth honest!<br />CharlieCharles Hedrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285420936166236724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-57623073341495636852019-12-21T05:06:23.439-06:002019-12-21T05:06:23.439-06:00Good post, Charles, thank-you. Two things I think...Good post, Charles, thank-you. Two things I think are good about the Church: 1) preserving belief in Jesus and his teaching, 2) good deeds for people in need. PAULYRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13958421646805026598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2828101829504518203.post-12927692370405163012019-12-20T10:28:20.972-06:002019-12-20T10:28:20.972-06:00Hi Charlie,
I like your emphasis on the benefit o...Hi Charlie,<br /><br />I like your emphasis on the benefit of a weekly pondering of "values, ethics, and eternal verities." But, oh, the shapes and sizes in which they come.<br /><br />At my wife's prompting, I attended mass this morning for the first time probably in 2-3 years. In addition to possibly 50 adults in attendance all of the children in grades 1-6 attended. <br /><br />The mass of course focused on faith in Jesus' sacrifice to eradicate the sins of the world as we await his second coming. The homily further advocated for the value of faith by drawing a contrast between belief and skepticism. Mary believed what the angel told her but Zechariah was punished for doubting his angel. No mention was made of Zechariah eventually seeing the light and giving a wonderful oration. <br /><br />We finally got to values after the mass was completed. The local Knights of Columbus held an essay contest with the subject being "What is virtue and what do virtuous people do? The winners were called to the front of the church for recognition.<br /><br />One take away I had was feeling sorry for the under-valued skeptic.<br /><br />Gene Stecher<br />Chambersburg, Pa. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com